BUIP 166: Launch a Chain for Proving Next Generation Features

I will point back to the 3-step approach I suggested earlier.

If this BUIP proposal includes launching a new coin from scratch, I do not believe it is beneficial to BU or BCH, and I’m going to vote my conscience as I have done so previously on matters where I consider they will ultimately harm BU or Bitcoin Cash.

Enabling sidechains in a meaningful way is on the table anyway, it never needed the $50K that you’re now offering, nor does commingling these changes with your BUIP in an effort to get more votes, convince me one bit that launching this new coin is a good idea or even moderately well considered, for all the reasons already highlighted in this public discussion.

None of this means I don’t welcome competition or don’t want BU to succeed or want it to succeed only on my terms, as you have privately communicated. You couldn’t be further from the truth there.

I’ve always respected and appreciated BU’s courage to pursue technically challenging protocol and client improvements, and certainly its dedication to Bitcoin Cash throughout the difficult period of ABC’s “not invented here” leadership.

Looking at Groestlcoin and Litecoin, I see two longstanding projects which have not worked at all in the way that you might wish for this new proving ground.

Go to r/groestlcoin and look at the ghost town it is.

I’ve been following Bitcoin and related crypto development for a bit now, and I can’t name a single noteworthy development made in GRS or LTC that has been incorporated back into their parent coin, BTC. To me that is evidence at the very least that these two project are NOT good examples in support of this BUIP.

Like others, I see a conflict of interest resulting from this new coin, saying that is not a sleight against you, @AndrewStone , or against BU . It is simply what I view as the predictable state of affairs that will develop.
It’s like splitting an atom, you end up with smaller particles who are now independently subject to forces in the bigger system.

As soon as BU membership accepts this BUIP, BU accepts a duty of responsibility for this new coin, both in its launch and aftercare.
This splits BU’s focus and attention. It will draw this organization’s focus away from BCH. It’s predictable, almost inevitable, and above all natural.

I want to stay focused on Bitcoin Cash.
I would like BU to also stay focused on Bitcoin Cash.

You don’t need to listen to me, but I hope you listen to the wider community (even outside of BU). After all, not doing that was one of the major criticisms you had - rightly - against the previous leadership in Bitcoin Cash.

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Thanks for your very reasonable and civil feedback freetrader. I personally appreciate it very much.

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I have voted to reject this because I think the matter hasn’t been discussed enough to make an informed decision. (stating it here to make it clear that i’m not against the idea or goal of this buip, but I am against taking potentially damaging action without understanding the consequences and options properly)

For clarify, I want to make it known that my opinion as someone who works on BCH smart contracts professionally, is that there is clear benefits to being able to soft-launch on a compatible network and validate implementation and demand for features.

I’m not sure of all the possible implications and difficulties that would involve, or how it would work when multiple incompatible features would be tested at the same time.

In the current context - being able to make smart contracts with value using features I believe is likely to make it into Bitcoin Cash later, such as Introspection, Larger Integers or similar, could end up important should one of those features fail to activate for may 2022 - for example if a bug or issue is found late in the cycle and it activation is postponed for safety reasons to 2023.

My preferred set up based on my current understanding is similar to SmartBCH’s intended two-way peg, and maybe an automated way to merge-mine multiple different value-networks where each network has only one of a few features tested on them.

I admit I don’t fully understand the issue, the tradeoffs and the benefits that all this can bring.

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I am voting for this BUIP. We have had a significant amount of discussion after ABC has left, but what we haven’t done is deliver features. Even simple things like produce a roadmap have been blocked. And note that decentralized collaboration CAN produce a roadmap – we would just indicate for each roadmap item who is interested in it. In this ecosystem, where significant investment is based on future speculation, it is obvious that a roadmap is needed.

On the technical side, I have personally been involved in the most significant CHIP effort (Group tokens) so far, and the problem that I faced was that a “consensus” style system tends to remove features down to the bare minimum, because the proposal has to be what everyone agrees on and so the smaller the change, the more likely no one will disagree. There were no security related criticisms to Group features, the criticisms were “I don’t think that is needed”. But what we need to do it broaden our functionality to appeal to more use cases, not gaze into our crystal balls!

This idea can do that by letting developers build awesome stuff on in a real sandbox and prove their value before merging.

Think of it as a race with many participants but lets break them into 2 participants, B(CH) and N(extchain), and everyone else. B gets a 700 mile head start on N, and it has a “magic power” which is that if it wants it can grab ANY advances that N makes easily! But B is BEHIND lots of other participants and has been losing ground.

The only way N will overtake B is if B does nothing. This should be obvious. But N’s advances can help B, so N can push B forward against its true competitors.

So it seems obvious that N is a net good. Now you might say, well, you guys took away from BCH to make Nextchain. You are no longer pushing BCH forward directly. First of all, we ARE pushing BCH forward. We remain 100% in support of BCH. But the reality is that BCHN is doing a good job with the day to day BCH work and so a lot of effort is just duplicated or wasted. Its like an army invading new territory. Do you want everyone in a bunch, or do you want scouts ranging around, finding the right path and looking for the adversary? The answer should be obvious. And what BU is doing right now and HAS BEEN doing this whole time is scouting new features and ideas. So nothing is being taken away because we won’t do things differently. But the problem is that when we say we’ve found a nice valley to build a fort in, 1 or 2 people don’t believe us and that blocks its use. What we need is to be able to bring a small advance party into that valley so they can all shout “hey its good over here!”

The opponents of this BUIP made a suggestion to use a sidechain. I offered to completely fund their sidechain development on BCH, but the offer was not accepted. This makes me question the honesty of their suggestion, because the situation was very similar to this: what if someone offered to pay for feature A that you wanted in BCH and B in some other random altcoin, or neither? I think the answer to take this person up on their offer should be obvious, because the net value to BCH ought to be greater than the disadvantage gained by competition in that altcoin (especially in the context of many competitors). This is why athletes train together.

So if this passes, I’ll commit to opening another BUIP funding that suggestion and voting for it.

So you have two choices.

First, you can vote YES for action. You can vote to enable 2 ways to drive features into BCH. One of the ways is suggested by me, the guy who first proposed OP_CDS, which is arguably the ONLY feature that has enabled new use cases and new adoption, and has been right about many other things, including how important transaction introspection and miner validated tokens – let’s be honest, REAL tokens – would be for blockchains. If we had had these tokens in late 2017 when I first proposed them, what would BCH look like today? So maybe I’m also right about this, even if it makes you nervous.

The other way, drivechains, is suggested by the opposition, who are quite notable personalities in BCH and so their idea should be taken seriously. Its their best idea to solve the problems I’ve identified. I think their solution has serious problems, the simplest of which is that the latest recommended implementation of it requires an opcode that does not exist on BCH and so the EARLIEST deployment is May 2022, (and miner cooperation, and lower security, and, and and…)

But regardless of my opinion, let’s have both, and see which method delivers the most value into the BCH blockchain!!! Do you see the fundamental difference in my philosophy verses the opposition? I am voting for new and exciting ideas and efforts, even ones that I don’t necessarily want to use. The opposition seeks to block my ideas and force their own solutions.

The above is what will happen if you vote YES for action!!!

Or you can vote NO for inaction. You can vote to do nothing. You can vote to sit around and pray that other, innovative blockchains run out of blockspace so maybe just maybe we get some of their leavings. You can pray that ETH fails to scale so that smartBCH gets some outside users, rather than actually being a black hole that will suck the BCH ledger into it and in doing so radiate out energy to power ETH projects.

If you vote NO for inaction, then I guess you can look directly in the mirror to see the reason why BCH has slipped from the #3 crypto to #13 in market cap and in price from .1 BTC to .018.

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Wait a moment…

Are you complaining that you couldn’t get GROUP in? Is that the reason why you are starting a new coin, because you cannot get your toys into stable codebase instantly?

Group proposal is actually going through. It will be in BCH. It just needs some time to grow up and have improvements.

So again, define what is the problem here?

I understand.

You are not even considering stopping your BUIP166 proposal.

You have already made up your mind long ago and no amount of argumentation is going to change it.

You had this plan for quite some time, didn’t you?

Coming up next:

  • Change to a premined coin or
  • The public will suddenly find out that you have had a NextPoW-compatibile ASIC farm ready for the last few months, just waiting to be powered up.

At least this is what my intuition tells me.

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@ShadowOfHarbringer See this thread April 7. My instinct is fine tuned.

NextChain is the adverse reaction to OP_GROUP innovation blockade (and more). And believe me @AndrewStone I understand very well what it feels like when “authoritarian forces” block your innovation. But the solution can’t be another division. People are tired of that.

Our goal demands unity. Division is the opposite of consensus.

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I probably mustn’t reply to this particular post because is not on topic IMHO, can’t help myself thou

agreed.

also agreed on that one. by the same token (no pun intended), we could claim the same for BCH thou.

I think that anyone who donated back then would have hoped that the big block movement had won. That said I see every further speculations related to the matter at hand far fetched and not relevant to the current discussion, especially if you consider that those “money” could have been long gone if it was not for the wisdom of BU members (back in Aug 2016 the value in USD of the donation was around 500K USD, that could very well have been eroded significantly before the Dec 2017 ATM).

Competition is not what I want and I don’t want to do harm to BCH either. if I want to do the the latter I would go the CSW/ABC way, this is something that is not happening for two main reason: 1) there’s no adversarial split, actually there’s no split at all, 2) because BU will remain committed to BCH by continuing to release a compatible client and contributing to the development of the protocol.

This could very well be the case, but I have more at heart the harming of BCH

like I said already there’s no split at all.

I dare saying that the market will always find a way to make everyone accountable, but just the mere fact that you use the word “legal” has left a bad test in my mouth, I’m sure this is not that case but I almost had the impression that if a “legal way” existed someone would have taken the time to pursue it…

if you think that this proposal has to go through a vote and that even if passed it is not even sure it will be implemented/deployed (like has been the case for a lot of other passed BUIPs in the past), speaking of “legal way to hold someone accountable” is pretty much out of place IMHO.

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There is more alternatives. One could vote NO now, then either vote YES for the same proposal in the next voting period after it has had more discussion and it’s better understood, or set up other BUIPs that brings this forward.

This BUIP is not a be-all end-all of activity.

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I believe other points have been addressed ad nauseum, but this deserves a reply, even if off-topic.

I don’t think BU’s mission is “to preserve that initial pot of money ad infinitum” either. Under the “wisdom” of the very same officers, BU became increasingly irrelevant as time went on, trust in BU from the community fell, adoption among miners went from tiny to nonexistent, and got itself in such a predicament that the formation of BCHN was practically necessary to save BCH from the coinbase tax, despite BU sounding like a natural alternative at that time. Was that wisdom? Is BU meant to preserve a pot of BTC as pension funds for its officers to pursue creative endeavors without making an impact in the world?

The BCH community is quite generous when it comes to funding. If BU took a different series of decisions and approaches, perhaps those BTC being depleted would be just fine; it would’ve got more fresh funding. Perhaps BCH didn’t have to fall so much in the first place as BU stands to be a viable moderate alternative in a world full of lunacy. Perhaps…

…but those are all speculation, there are no "if"s in history. My point is the “wisdom to preserve value in BTC” is really cringey to hear, and it needs to be put in context.

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wow, the notion that this potential project is ‘competition’ to BCH, and that its ‘harming’ BCH and the network effect of BCH reeks of desperation to control others.

Seems to run contrary to the goal of bringing peer to peer cash to the world to hold others back to support ones personal bags.

If BCH is so great why would anyone involved in BCH seek to control the output of others?

BU is de-facto BCH-only project. Or rather, was.

After BUIP166, BU will be a separate coin and project. So, competition.

Why compete when we can unite?

Crypto ecosystem is super fragmented. Want to make it even more fragmented and achieve nothing? Go ahead.

Calling it now: In 3 years, BU will be completely dead.

Bitcoin Unlimited used to mean something. After this, it will be just , yet another coin out of thousands, merely a husk with nothing remaining of its former glory.

You could say BU ends with BUIP166, in thunderous applause.

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fair enough, though I found “legal way” even more “cringey”, guess everyone has his own taste when it comes to this sort of stuff, but I can see your point.

that said, the wisdom I was referring to was exclusively related to the preservation of fund value, not the increase of it by any given chosen allocations, and just for the interval of time that goes from Aug '16 to mid 2017.

I raised this point just to remove BU fund topic from the discussion, because I found it a distraction and so that we could discuss the matter at hand pretending that there’s no such a pot floating around.

Never the fact that BU members’ wisdom would be “all mighty”, “all knowing” crossed my mind. I just found wise the decision to avoid any useless spending in the immediate aftermath of the donation (and I assure that that had been many attempts to do that).

‘why compete when we can unite’

we can unite, around the goal of bringing peer to peer cash to the world. its a noble goal.

competition of the sort that this might be construed to be is entirely healthy.

attempting to control the mindshare of others who have expressed clear alignment to the unified goal of peer to peer cash for the world isn’t appropriate

“BU is de-facto BCH-only project.” -disagree, BU was to flippen core nodes and scale BTC.

also, Bitcoin Unlimited used to mean scaling up the max block size parameter to me, something which BCH community has seemingly grown an aversion to.

For that reason, BCH clearly needs more real world competition than this potential project could ever bring, being a BCH subproject as it is.

To the extent the BCH commune makes the incorrect scaling decisions; its network effect ought rightly to be cleaved.

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BTC is no longer Bitcoin. It became an abomination.

BCH is Bitcoin now.

If you disagree, then you have a problem. Weren’t you a BSV fan, anyway? I already forgot.

Seems like you are living in fantasy world.

Anyway, I am outta here, BUIP166 was done deal from the start, any discussion is irrelevant. Andrew will do what he wants to do, no matter what is the public opinion about it.

“BCH is Bitcoin now.”

…?

goodbye

I specifically said “there is likely no legal or other ways to hold anyone accountable”. There have been many people who want to sue each other in Bitcoin history, you think me saying not to pursue that route is somehow an equivalent?

As far as I can see the only person who insist on butchering other people’s words out of context in this thread was Andrew, it would be nice if other people at least don’t stoop to his level.

’ My point is the “wisdom to preserve value in BTC” is really cringey to hear, and it needs to be put in context.’ -imuname

the relevant context:

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and this is what I responded the first time you use these words:

I dare saying that the market will always find a way to make everyone accountable, but just the mere fact that you use the word “legal” has left a bad test in my mouth, I’m sure this is not that case but I almost had the impression that if a “legal way” existed someone would have taken the time to pursue it…

hence I was triggered by the fact that you brought up the legal angle (or the lack of thereof), because it somewhat implied that if a legal way was there someone would have probably pursued it.

I don’t think this is “butchering other people’s words” and I have no intention to put words in other people’s mouth. If you thought this was that case I can assure it was far from my intention.

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From what I have read I think the main concern that people have can be summed up with a single phrase.

Conflict of Interest

I would find this discussion more productive if people suggested ways to mitigate this conflict of interest or find a civil compromise. Here are some of the risks and benefits I see from this proposal, much of which has already been said.

Benefits:

  1. Playground for new features and ideas to be explored. Better than a test net because it would create its own economy and possibly its own funding mechanisms.

  2. A way to prove how much the crypto market desires a new feature that BCH could take into consideration. Similar to how ETH proved DeFi and smart contracts have strong market demand.

Risks:

  1. Moving resources away from BCH into NextChain. Developers, businesses, and the user network effect may have their time and resources divided between the two coins.

  2. BCH stakeholders do not benefit from the direct success of NextChain’s coin if it appreciates significantly in value.

Possible Solutions:

To address risk 2 my solution would be to have NextChain coin be airdropped to all BCH stakeholders so they can benefit from its financial success.

Addressing risk 1 is more difficult but my gut feeling thinks it won’t be as problematic as we might think. I think most developers, businesses, and users including myself would treat NextChain as more of a sandbox to try out new features that will be ported over to BCH if they gain strong popularity.

My analysis of the risks, benefits, and solutions are far from perfect but I would love to see less fighting and more productive efforts spent on finding either a compromise or a suggestion to modify the proposal that keeps the benefits while mitigating the risks.

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